Monday, August 20, 2007

Less, Fewer, and Ancient Marital Disputes

I was at dinner with my father.

I brought up a lovely new word game that Penelope and I had begun playing. The title of the game is "25 words or less". My dear father corrected me and said "25 words or fewer". I said yes yes yes, I know all about that, but let me tell you about this great game.

Instead of listening to me tell him about this game, he launched into a (roundabout) explanation of the difference between less and fewer. I said I know! Less is for mass nouns and fewer is for count nouns. Except, I went on to say, for the case of ONE. You should say one LESS aeroplane, not one FEWER aeroplane.

my father rolled his eyes and said, yeah yeah, that's Martha's favorite thing, but honestly...

All this time I was telling people about the less/fewer exception and it turns out it was nothing but a MOMISM!

I found zero references on the web to anything that corroborates this cockamaime (and its own dubious etymology) theory.

Here's the "Grammar Goddess" on the subject.

This guy thinks the only exceptions are with units of time and money, e.g. I have 500 dollars less than you do, not I have 500 dollars fewer than you do.

Kenneth G. Wilson sums it all up in a pretty tidy paragraph, all without a mention of this "last unit" theory.

I should say that at dinner, I lied and said that I had read this rule in the Chicago Manual of Style of all places, which was an outright lie! And now I find out that it's true, I've been spouting momisms for years!

This is your big chance at vindication. Mother, you always say that your golden rule for grammar is that if smart people say it, it's probably ok to say it too. So find me one other person, smart or otherwise, on this vast internet that thinks like you do, and I'll drop my indignation.

2 Comments:

At 5:14 PM, Blogger Liz Coppock said...

I tried to back Mom up with the OED, and there isn't a whole lot of support. However, it says that "less" has been used as a plural determiner for centuries (going back even to c888):

I thinke there are few Vniuersities that haue lesse faultes than Oxford, many that haue more. [1579]

The OED also says that this is "freq. found but generally regarded as incorrect," without making a distinction between "one" and other count expressions.

Also, there is this use "preceding (formerly also, following) a numeral or other quantitative expression, used to denote that the number or quantity indicated is to be subtracted from a larger one mentioned or implied; = MINUS" (OED). In this case "less" goes with plural count nouns.

Here is an example with "less" preceding the quantitative expression:

If I borrow £100..I pay my interest, less tax. [1910]

Here is an example with "less" following the quantitative expression:

This siege endured a long season, the space of a xi. wekes, thre dayes lesse. [1523]

So "one less" or even "two less" could be analyzed as instance of this construction, with archaic word order ("less" following the quantitative expression). I'm not sure if that goes for "one less day" too.

Again, this still doesn't address Mom's idea that there is a difference between singular and plural count expressions though, so vindication is not yet at hand.

 
At 3:48 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

I looked in five reference manuals and, except for the Gregg Manual, they all said the same thing, which is, very little, and they don't cover the point in question. So I turned to the Grammar Goddess. She got as close as anyone except Liz, but still not there. So I have written to her:

Dear Grammar Goddess

I'm trying to settle an old dispute in my family, and your article on less and fewer shows that you understand the basics (and more) extremely well.

I have asked many educated people this question:

"If my plate has three cookies, and yours has four, we can agree that I have fewer cookies than you do. However, do I have one less cookie than you do, or do I have one fewer cookie than you do, or do I have one fewer cookies than you do?"

If I'm able to ask the question neutrally, by gesturing instead of offering the alternatives, I usually get "one less cookie", but some say "one fewer cookie".

The usage books are no help in this, as you can imagine.

They say "less" modifies singular, mass quantity nouns, and "fewer" modifies plural, countable nouns.

What modifies singular, countable nouns?

M
E

 

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